I just read that DRS (the boys high school in Woodmere) is opening up a post-high school yeshiva program. I am extremely happy with this news, although I am sure (based on speaking to someone there), that Yeshiva University is not. Obviously this presents a potential cheaper option for those who want to attend Queens College or a comparable place. But it is not only the potential savings that excites me.
I am not going to go through my entire story, but suffice it to say that I was not happy for the year I spent at YU. I subsequently switched to Lander College, from where I graduated. I know, if I switched to Lander you are probably thinking that I must have...
a) Thought of myself as being yeshivish
b) Considered poetry to be the source of all evil in the world
c) Labeled Rabbi Lamm as a kofer
d) Been really weird
e) All of the above
Actually none is true, except maybe d. I switched because I wasn't happy. I wasn't happy because I felt that the environment in the Yeshiva Program was (and probably still is) a bit too Torah-Centric. Here's what I mean:
As we have discussed numerous times, there is a lot more to meaning in a Jewish life than how much a person engages in "holy" activities. There is a lot to be said for accomplishing things outside the realm of what people call "spirituality." People, including myself, are often sensitive to this, and need other things for their spirituality. In fact, engaging in pursuits other than "holiness" may be fulfilling part of the purpose of creation. If you don't trust me, read the first chapter of By His Light, which is based on R' Aharon Lichtenstein's speeches. (Thanks to fellow blogger Erachet for suggesting I read it; it's a must-read for anyone who believes in "being normal.")
This idea, is one of the biggest casualties of the "flipping out" phenomenon. When many teenagers flip out they change their entire focus to the areas of Talmud Torah and holiness. What many don't realize is that to drastically alter your focus is not an obligation incumbent on every person, and that for many, it is unhealthy. Additionally, they may become ignorant of the fact that other who don't follow their approach, may actually be doing the right thing.
As we have discussed, the Rebbeim is Israel have the ability to set these kid straight, and often don't, either because they don't believe they should, or because they think it will hurt the effectiveness of their Yeshiva, or some other reason. However, as fellow blogger Chaim pointed in the comments, the post-high school Rebbeim have just as much responsibility and ability to attend to this problem.
Which brings me to YU. I found there to be very little guidance from the Rebbeim in Yeshiva University. Many of them only come in for a few hours, just to give shiur, and leave. Very little is heard from the Rebbeim besides the Torah they teach, and for some, even the Parsha shiur is just another Gemara sugya on a topic related to the Parsha. Every once in a while there was a speech about a meaningful topic like dating or something, but this was never followed by a "meet with the rebbe and discuss your issues personally" session. In short, one could easily get the impression there that Talmud Torah is the only important value.
My impression was that this attitude was very prevalent among the students there as well. People spent hours on end learning, (which is good) but cut a lot of their classes (which is bad), brought seforim to class (which is disrespectful), were constantly deriding the Madda portion of the school (also bad), and gave off the general impression that value to yourself and the Jewish people is based on how much Torah you learn. These guys were the ones who were "well-known" in the Beis Medrash (aka the role models), and were overall just way too intense.
I wouldn't have a problem with this if YU were strictly a Yeshiva for the most serious boys. But it's not. Just based on the sheer numbers, there is no way that the Yeshiva Program can expect everyone to be Torah-only students. Additionally, YU itself stands for the type of well-rounded philosophy that is not most common among it's students. Most care too much about Torah, or not enough Torah, to even come near the ideal YU product. So either the Rebbeim are not on boat with YU philosophy (which is dysfunctional) or they are, but don't have time to care (which is equally as dysfunctional).
Either way, YU has the potential to produce normal, but G-d fearing graduates who are knowledgeable in both their professional field and in Torah. But unfortunately, the opportunity is not being taken advantage of for whatever reason or reasons that may be. I know YU has been trying lately to reverse this trend, but until they do more to change the culture there, I will be excited about any new possible program that may (or may not) steer their students, and by extension the rest of us, in the right direction.
Wednesday, June 24, 2009
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
15 comments:
You hit the nail right on the head, and I say that having spent high-school, college, smicha program, and grad school at YU. I cannot recall a rebbe ever asking me what courses I was taking, what my major was, how I was managing intergrating torah and college, etc. What YU lacks, in a single word: hadracha. There is just way too much danger of sinking through the cracks there. The outcome is students who have immersed themselves in pre-med or pre-law and will go on to great careers but maybe not be the bnei Torah they could have had someone devoted some attention to their development or students immersed completely in Torah who fail to gain the benefit of the college education and skills the place offers.
That is some serious YU bashing. I hope other blogs get wind of this and it causes a big controversy. I didn't love the place and would never go back, but apparently I didn't hate it as much as you did. What you said is correct - YU is very Torah Centric. It's a great place to learn and to learn under some of the biggest talmidei chachomim in America, but it's not a "yeshiva" in the sense that there's no real connection to the place. No in-shabbosim, no in-yomim tovim, etc. I have no personal desire to go back there and see the 'ol gang. If someone wants a true yeshiva environment where their rabbeim are around a lot and have personal relationships with their talmidim then 100% go somewhere else. I think a lot of people who bash YU for this have to take a step back and realize that's *not* what YU is. People seem to think YU *should* (trying to italicize here, i don't know how) be a certain way. It's not that way and never has been (at least for the last 25 years). Shouldn't we fault the student for failing to do research on what YU is really like? If he wants something else out of his yeshiva/college experience then go to a different place.
On a nother note: This DRS post-Israel yeshiva had my chavrusah and I thinking about the possibilities of what this could open up. Can we get all the high schools to do this and start hockey and basketball leagues again? So you'd have JV, Varsity, and now what we termed "Super Varsity." No age limit - you just have to be post Israel. Who wouldn't be into this?
This post made me feel like I was back in YU, in the Morg 3rd floor bathroom, 2nd stall on the right, reading "The Commentator" (YU paper). I think every article in the comentator addresses this issue, in a different shape or form, and a conclusion is never drawn. Good times.
Fearliss (I hate having to call you this stupid name) -
You could make the same claim in reverse...don't you think YU should know what the kids that are coming in need and not adjust as opposed to asking the 40,000 a year paying students to adjust?
Either way, my beef is not with the non-yeshiva aspect, it's with the fact that there is such potential to change our communities for the better by providing a bit of guidance, but they don't.
Anonymous -
My choice was always the handicapped stall in Muss.
However, I chose to read the Observer; it was the only way to feel like you were interacting with girls.
Well said. I know a number of boys who came back from Israel on board, only to lose it at YU. This to me is one of the biggest problems at YU.
YD - I don't think you can change it around so easily. Yes a student pays $40,000, but he has to take the courses YU offers him. He can't just make up his own schedule with classes like "Historical Intercamp Fights: 1995 Lavi vs. Mesorah." YU chooses how to present itself and what to offer its students. Students can lobby the administration for certain courses or ameneties, but for the most part the institution decides - without student input - how to run the school.
As for my name: My parents named me Fearliss and I'm not one of those kids who flips out in Israel and changes my name to B'li Pachad or something like that. I hold by Rav Moshe's teshuva.
Sorry, the above was me. Forgot my name.
Is there any yeshiva that's the size of YU that succeeds in this goal?
I've long wondered why there were so few yeshiva programs geared to bochurim who are concurrently receiving college degrees (my own yeshiva being one of the exceptions, although I actually wasn't there during college), so am ecstatic that programs of this type seem to be developing.
I went to Stern, which is a totally different story, but I can testify to having dated YU guys who created close relationships with their rebbeim. Yes, I think it requires some effort on the guy's part--he has to do some of the reaching out to create the kesher--but it is very doable. I'm sure some rebbeim are more accessible than others, but I know many guys who are very happy with the hadracha they received there.
I have so many thoughts on this (excellent) post that I don't where to start.
Regarding DRS's idea... it sounds like it is a low-cost alternative that would negatively impact places like Lander and YU. Smart on their part; not necessarily great in the overall picture, but that's a different point.
I never really viewed YU as an option while in HS, simply because it was ingrained into me that it was less "frum"; this, despite my sister and brother-in-law having been in YU/Stern. (Stern, for whatever reason, did not have that stigma.)
Only when I went to visit was I impressed by their full BM; on the flip side, the guy who showed us around had just woken up and his chavrusa was sleeping. (It was 1030am.) Moreover, there were 5-600 guys learning. There are 1,100 in YU, as pointed out by a Rebbe of mine.
The Torah-centric point is a fantastic one and aligns well with a few other discussions I was having recently (some after this post was written). To super-over-simplify a much longer conversation, it's not surprising that it exists in YU, but not in Lander. If someone is MO or MO-background or "flipped", there is often a need to ensure that one is perceived as being the proper level of frum. In Lander, by being there alone one self-defines as being "more frum" (as compared to YU et al). In YU, because there is a large chunk of people who could not care less, those who do feel a pressure to 'show' their frumkeit by bringing Torah everywhere (as opposed to understanding that Torah is part of everywhere). The same person in Lander doesn't have this pressure; they are already "frum"; they can simply focus on their secular studies at their time and learning at its time.
I personally didn't find the Rabbeim in Lander to be much better than what you described, but then again, I was used to WITS and OJ, two places notoriously good about it; it was substantially better in LCM than in other Yeshivos I was in, so give it that. Certainly they made time if approached.
Lost track of all the thoughts, but excellent post. Lots of other discussions that can come from this.
YD - I don't know if you've been back to Lander recently (and spoken with current students), but things are different there. Organizations change as they grow, and Lander is no exception. The attitudes found amongst both the students and the faculty are interesting, to say the least.
The place is definitely run in a different manner than it used to be, from what I understand, and somehow I don't feel that it can be directly attributed to sheer growth. I would be very interested in hearing about your experiences there (in comparison with mine).
Not that I hate the place or anything - on the contrary, I've never been happier! I can't begin to express my gratitude to the school. I've had some truly wonderful experiences there, and I always look forward to returning there after vacation.
I believe that more people are switching from YU to Lander now, or ruling out YU entirely, although it seems that cost is playing a much greater role in these decisions (not surprisingly).
I think that a DRS program for post-high school students would be great for exactly the reasons you stated.
While there certainly are rabbeim with whom one can forge a relationship, and some, like Rabbi Simon, who go out of there way to try and create the relationship, there are many guys who need to be reached out to. We can analyze why this is, but it seems to me to be a fact. Most yeshivas in Israel understand this and have rabbeim on board who do so. At YU, it is much harder. The guys who need it the most often do not get that help. The program for kids with little or no backround seems to be a notable exception.
You are all forgetting that YU, unlike all of these other institutions including Landers and other "real yeshivas" has tried to correct this problem with the Sganei Mashgichim program which if used does solve the problem and benefit the masses.
Solve the problem? I assume you are being sarcastic.
5 people for 1,000 doesn't help, especially if, I am correct in assuming, these mashgichim aren't taken seriously by most students becsaue the talmidim compare the mashgichim to their Rebbeim.
Post a Comment